Flaw in Fort Wilderness System

[LONE-STAR 370]

They had about 3 pull throughs. But in 07 they did away with them, and it looks better with out them now brush hides the sites.

[Lou... 3,118]

I agree with your premise that the Fort is mismanaged.

Despite being managed by a bunch of idiots.

 

A little insight regarding the Fort's management, it's very fractured.

Conventional wisdom is that Disney manages the Fort, Disney doesn't. All resorts although owned by Disney are autonomous. Budgets and the day to day operations are managed by the resorts management team up to a point.

The resorts are like franchises that have to comply with the criteria as established by the franchise company. They also have to use certain services that the franchise company provides, for a price of course. 

The two main areas where the Fort management team has full control is the Front Office and Housekeeping which includes some engineering and maintenance functions, but just about everything else, while appearing to be part of the Fort, is actually a third party arrangement.

So if there is an issue with anything other than what the Front Office and Housekeeping are responsible for, it's not the Fort's management that will decide what to do, it will be the main WDW entity that provides the service.

Of course, the Fort's management will have input and be involved in the decision making as they are the customer, but again only up to a point. So while you can blame the Fort's management for a lot of things, they are not directly to blame for everything.

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

A little insight regarding the Fort's management, it's very fractured.

Conventional wisdom is that Disney manages the Fort, Disney doesn't. All resorts although owned by Disney are autonomous. Budgets and the day to day operations are managed by the resorts management team up to a point.

The resorts are like franchises that have to comply with the criteria as established by the franchise company. They also have to use certain services that the franchise company provides, for a price of course. 

The two main areas where the Fort management team has full control is the Front Office and Housekeeping which includes some engineering and maintenance functions, but just about everything else, while appearing to be part of the Fort, is actually a third party arrangement.

So if there is an issue with anything other than what the Front Office and Housekeeping are responsible for, it's not the Fort's management that will decide what to do, it will be the main WDW entity that provides the service.

Of course, the Fort's management will have input and be involved in the decision making as they are the customer, but again only up to a point. So while you can blame the Fort's management for a lot of things, they are not directly to blame for everything.

 

What you have described is a huge part of the problem, and goes back to what hitman007 said in his original post.  The campground is not run like a campground.  And the people in charge have no idea how to run a successful campground.

 

One small example- in 2009, they made over half the sites in the Fort premium sites.  Some beancounter figured that this would bring in more revenue.  I don't think that's what happened at all.  The partial, full and preferred loops all have much higher occupancy than the premium sites, and they often offer discounts on the premium sites.  Not to mention that they didn't even do the job right.  They just had the entire 900 loop closed for two months during peak time to replace things that should have been replaced when the loop was closed for the conversion to premium in 2009.

 

There are so many things they could do better.  And so many ways they could be more profitable and offer a better product to the guests.  But they can't do that because they don't know what they're doing.

 

My statement is still true- the place is managed by a bunch of idiots, whether they work at the Fort or somewhere else in the Disney organization.

 

TCD

[Starbuc71 162]

What you have described is a huge part of the problem, and goes back to what hitman007 said in his original post.  The campground is not run like a campground.  And the people in charge have no idea how to run a successful campground.

 

One small example- in 2009, they made over half the sites in the Fort premium sites.  Some beancounter figured that this would bring in more revenue.  I don't think that's what happened at all.  The partial, full and preferred loops all have much higher occupancy than the premium sites, and they often offer discounts on the premium sites.  Not to mention that they didn't even do the job right.  They just had the entire 900 loop closed for two months during peak time to replace things that should have been replaced when the loop was closed for the conversion to premium in 2009.

 

There are so many things they could do better.  And so many ways they could be more profitable and offer a better product to the guests.  But they can't do that because they don't know what they're doing.

 

My statement is still true- the place is managed by a bunch of idiots, whether they work at the Fort or somewhere else in the Disney organization.

 

TCD

Touché at times I believe. A KOA couple could do a better job and that's not saying much....lol

[Davydee 3]

OK, now it's clearer.  Disney is training its people up as a customer first service org, but runs the place like a navy base.  Yep, that ain't gonna work.  David

[Retired & Tired (Judy) 90]

Well said Lou......uh oh, here I go again agreeing with Lou.  This is getting scary!!! :jumpforjoy   Despite all the complaints about the Fort Management, we have found them to be very helpful and friendly and sometimes going out of their way to help us.  We have asked for  different site when checking in and had no problem.  A couple of year ago we went to the site they assigned us and our RV and trailer would not fit so I called the front desk...they sent us to check out another....still would not work....so the nice young man told me to check out all the sites and he would see about getting it for us.  The only one we could not get was an empty site but it was already promised to the same family that had the site next to it.   So we kept looking and when we found one it was a premium site and we had paid for a Preffered.  They said no problem.  No upgrade charge.  When I needed to go to the hospital this past December, they sent a car for me, took me to the front office, called a cab for me and then gave me a voucher to give the driver as they would be paying him.   When our sweet little Colton (EZ) passed away in December 2008, they escorted the ambulance to the site, asked what they could do to help and when Ken's cell phone was not ringing and I could not reach him, I called the front desk and they headed immediately to the site to have Ken call me at once.   They were more than caring when I came back without the baby.

 

 

Yes, we have had a few complaints from time to time but all in all I think they do as good a job as anyone could in the same circumstances.   They have far more sites and people to deal with on a daily basis than the KOA owners.  And we do love KOA too.  

 

Am looking forward to getting to that mis managed place in 11 days,      :banana:  :mh1:  :annce:  :fairydust:  :thtray:  

[Lou... 3,118]

Very nice counterpoint Judy.

 

[Grumpy and Grandma 740]

 They just had the entire 900 loop closed for two months during peak time to replace things that should have been replaced when the loop was closed for the conversion to premium in 2009.

TCD

Having spent 21 yrs of my career in Public Works i have to come to Disney's defense.  There may not have been major problems with the elec when they did the change over in 2009. I was always ask that question about work we were doing when it occured after a major rehab of a street. "Why didn't you do it when-----" well because it wasnt' bad then.  It would be nice to be able to predict underground system failures, but it usually doesn't happen. 

 

It's just no different than a car.  You don't replace the engine just because the transmission needs an overhaul,

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

Well said Lou......uh oh, here I go again agreeing with Lou.  This is getting scary!!! :jumpforjoy   Despite all the complaints about the Fort Management, we have found them to be very helpful and friendly and sometimes going out of their way to help us.  We have asked for  different site when checking in and had no problem.  A couple of year ago we went to the site they assigned us and our RV and trailer would not fit so I called the front desk...they sent us to check out another....still would not work....so the nice young man told me to check out all the sites and he would see about getting it for us.  The only one we could not get was an empty site but it was already promised to the same family that had the site next to it.   So we kept looking and when we found one it was a premium site and we had paid for a Preffered.  They said no problem.  No upgrade charge.  When I needed to go to the hospital this past December, they sent a car for me, took me to the front office, called a cab for me and then gave me a voucher to give the driver as they would be paying him.   When our sweet little Colton (EZ) passed away in December 2008, they escorted the ambulance to the site, asked what they could do to help and when Ken's cell phone was not ringing and I could not reach him, I called the front desk and they headed immediately to the site to have Ken call me at once.   They were more than caring when I came back without the baby.

 

 

Yes, we have had a few complaints from time to time but all in all I think they do as good a job as anyone could in the same circumstances.   They have far more sites and people to deal with on a daily basis than the KOA owners.  And we do love KOA too.  

 

Am looking forward to getting to that mis managed place in 11 days,      :banana:  :mh1:  :annce:  :fairydust:  :thtray:  

 

 

Very nice counterpoint Judy.

 

 Not really.

 

I never said the folks who work at the Fort on a daily basis are not nice.

 

If anything they are too nice.  Especially to all the locals who flock to the Fort to enjoy the pool and other amenities without paying a dime.  And the underage golf cart drivers.  And the hoardes of guests who blatantly violate the ten person per site rule and make all the other guests on their loop miserable.  Yep, there are some nice young men (and women) who are very nice to all those folks too.

 

That does not for a minute excuse the bonehead decisions made over and over by the idiot managers up the food chain.

 

 

Having spent 21 yrs of my career in Public Works i have to come to Disney's defense.  There may not have been major problems with the elec when they did the change over in 2009. I was always ask that question about work we were doing when it occured after a major rehab of a street. "Why didn't you do it when-----" well because it wasnt' bad then.  It would be nice to be able to predict underground system failures, but it usually doesn't happen. 

 

It's just no different than a car.  You don't replace the engine just because the transmission needs an overhaul,

 

OK, your point is that the Fort is run like a public works department?

 

I agree with you.

 

But I don't agree that is a good thing.

 

The utilities in the 900 loop were going on 40 years old when the loop was closed for at least a month in 2009 to cut down a bunch of trees, pour new slabs and bolt down some defective grills.  No one thought that might be a good time to replace some electric lines and plumbing that was near or past its life expectency?

 

You're right - it sounds exactly like a public works department.

 

TCD

[Lou... 3,118]

 Not really.

I never said the folks who work at the Fort on a daily basis are not nice.

If anything they are too nice.  Especially to all the locals who flock to the Fort to enjoy the pool and other amenities without paying a dime.  And the underage golf cart drivers.  And the hoardes of guests who blatantly violate the ten person per site rule and make all the other guests on their loop miserable.  Yep, there are some nice young men (and women) who are very nice to all those folks too.

That does not for a minute excuse the bonehead decisions made over and over by the idiot managers up the food chain.

OK, your point is that the Fort is run like a public works department?

I agree with you.

But I don't agree that is a good thing.

The utilities in the 900 loop were going on 40 years old when the loop was closed for at least a month in 2009 to cut down a bunch of trees, pour new slabs and bolt down some defective grills.  No one thought that might be a good time to replace some electric lines and plumbing that was near or past its life expectency?

You're right - it sounds exactly like a public works department.

TCD

 

Man, what side of the bed did you get up on?

So you're saying that you absolutely hated Judy's, who BTW is a saint, very nice response to the Fort haters and that I, a saint in training, complemented her on it?

And you're also saying that Dave, who is not a saint, is full of crap? Do I have that right?

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

Man, what side of the bed did you get up on?

So you're saying that you absolutely hated Judy's, who BTW is a saint, very nice response to the Fort haters and that I, a saint in training, complemented her on it?

And you're also saying that Dave, who is not a saint, is full of crap? Do I have that right?

 

Lou, Lou, Lou.

 

I said nothing of the sort.

 

I didn't hate Judy's (who is most definitely a saint) response at all. She thinks thinks the nice young men who work in the Reception Outpost are great.  All I was saying is so do the freeloaders and rule breakers. And I am not a Fort hater.  I am an idiot Fort manager hater.

 

And I didn't say Dave (who is a very nice guy, but no saint) is full of crap.  I agreed with his premise that the Fort is run like a public works department.  I just disagreed that was a good thing.

 

I didn't know you were a saint in training.  Whoever is training you needs to step it up.

 

TCD

[Grumpy and Grandma 740]

And you're also saying that Dave, who is not a saint, 

 

 

And I didn't say Dave (who is a very nice guy, but no saint)

 

TCD

 

Excuse me!   From the Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dawid), which was probably derived from Hebrew דוד (dwd) meaning "beloved".  

[ftwildernessguy 778]

I would just like to take this opportunity to point out that I am neither a saint nor a nice guy.

Carry on.

[Lou... 3,118]

From the Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dawid), which was probably derived from Hebrew דוד (dwd) meaning "beloved".  

 

You were right TCD when you said that Dave is full of crap.

 

I would just like to take this opportunity to point out that I am neither a saint nor a nice guy.

 

 

Who in their right mind would ever say you were?

[Grumpy and Grandma 740]

You were right TCD when you said that Dave is full of crap.

 

:smartass:

[Starbuc71 162]

What a great hijack from a thread where a new fiend just needed info on how to request a site. I run ran into Doug at the fort tonight and he asked if I thought things have been better. I told him compared to years ago there has been an improvement but I think there is a way to go. I believe we will never win the battle of the big three no matter who is running the helm at the fort or at Disney it's self (local freeloaders, unregistered pool guest and underage golf cart drivers). At least that is my main three. I guess we all need to be thankful that the fort is still here for us to enjoy. I believe sometime in the future it will be gone. There will be so many high rise five star resorts or DVC's surrounding it that it won't be camping anymore. Although they are updating things like electrical and adding bigger pads, rusty grills and picnic tables you can find a tablecloth for, they rarely add new ammenities that would enhance the fort. The re-do of the main pool was a must I'm sure to get it to code. The slide was a small bonus to keep up with the jones. The splash zone was a good thought but never maintained. We will have to see what the future holds but I'm sure we will never see a positive change with any management to change the fort for the better all together.

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

What a great hijack from a thread where a new fiend just needed info on how to request a site. I run ran into Doug at the fort tonight and he asked if I thought things have been better. I told him compared to years ago there has been an improvement but I think there is a way to go. I believe we will never win the battle of the big three no matter who is running the helm at the fort or at Disney it's self (local freeloaders, unregistered pool guest and underage golf cart drivers). At least that is my main three. I guess we all need to be thankful that the fort is still here for us to enjoy. I believe sometime in the future it will be gone. There will be so many high rise five star resorts or DVC's surrounding it that it won't be camping anymore. Although they are updating things like electrical and adding bigger pads, rusty grills and picnic tables you can find a tablecloth for, they rarely add new ammenities that would enhance the fort. The re-do of the main pool was a must I'm sure to get it to code. The slide was a small bonus to keep up with the jones. The splash zone was a good thought but never maintained. We will have to see what the future holds but I'm sure we will never see a positive change with any management to change the fort for the better all together.

 

Good post.

 

I agree with you about the big three.  And that none of these issues are a priority with management.

 

These issues could be solved with just a little effort.  The fact that no effort is made tells us loud and clear that the management couldn't give a rat's patootie about the Fort's paying customers.  They learned long ago that there are plenty of suckers (and I'm one of them) who will continue to rent sites despite the problems with freeloaders at the pool and out of control golf carts.

 

They also have a long history of just letting stuff fall apart before they do anything about it.  It has worked for them that way since day one, so I don't expect to see any change in that either.

 

And you're right- they allowed the Four Seasons resort to be built right next to the Fort, so a giant high rise luxury hotel will be visible from many places in the Fort, especially when it is lit up at night.  And, they have plans drawn to build a huge DVC resort including a huge parking lot, which, if it is ever built, will completely ruin the ambiance of the entire Settlement area of the Fort.

 

I really don't think they care.  All along, they have known that they could make much more money from the Fort's real estate by bulldozing the campground and developing it into a mega resort.  And there will come a day where that is exactly what will happen.

 

TCD

[Starbuc71 162]

When the day comes that they bulldoze the fort, we will have an expensive piece of mobile real estate property that will not be used too often. And who the heck would want to buy a herbie golf cart if there is no fort...lol

[Classact....Mike 17]

It would indeed be nice to reserve specific spots, however I understand the reasoning why they don't.  Many (most? all?) of our favorite campgrounds do not reserve specific sites.  It sounds good in theory, but when someone cancels a reservation, or stays longer than they planned, or...whatever...it causes a domino effect on site availability and before you know it, you have a headache. 

 

We have called up front and changed sites numerous times with no hassle.  We have also unhooked the toad and drove back to scope the assigned site before taking the motorhome back. They've been accomodating in all cases. 

 

Something else we do at favorite campgrounds is drive around and make notes of all sites on our wishlist.  Sometimes we'll call as we are driving in and they will often do their best to hold one of those sites for us.