Ford education...

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

For those of you, with Ford wisdom, please help me/us understand.  With considering a 5th wheel, we've also considered changing trucks.  Currently we have a 2011 F250; Tom has looked at F350's and even an dually.  He really doesn't want a dually as it will be his daily driver and his commute is an hour each way.   From what we can tell, Ford's engines are the same in both the 250 and 350.  The difference is suspension and (with a dually) an extra set of tires.

Does this sound right?

[bhall 115]

You definitely need to change trucks if you buy any of the 5ers you've hinted at. Try to buy the same year as yours or newer. The frame and the engines are the same between the 250/350. Parts diagrams I looked at also show the same brakes. The springs and the spring block are the only glaring difference. I've seen anywhere from 17"-20" on both 250s and 350s. I would avoid 20" tires for ride comfort.

If you're looking at different trucks. Look at the GM twins 2015 and newer crew cabs. All the ford fanboys at the auction building that have ford crew cabs all admit I have more leg room in the cab both front and rear and admit my truck squats a lot LESS with trailers hooked up then theirs. Like I stated before. I can put dog cases in the back of the crew cab on the floor with the seat folded up. I couldn't do that with the fords or Rams unless it was the ram mega cab.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

46 minutes ago, bhall said:

 The frame and the engines are the same between the 250/350. Parts diagrams I looked at also show the same brakes. The springs and the spring block are the only glaring difference. I've seen anywhere from 17"-20" on both 250s and 350s. I would avoid 20" tires for ride comfort.

Then why not modify the rear end of what we've got?  We've read about air bags, but talking with a few shops, they all said airbags were not the way to go, but to (instead) install Timbren springs.  That and a different (rated) tire.  Unless we went with a 2017 Ford or a dually, tow capacity does not change much from the 2011 F250.

[PGHFiend 140]

If your truck doesn't already have load range E tires, it really should, they were factory equipment.  I really love my Firestone airbags and Airlift compressor, made a tremendous difference in load handling and stability. 

On the truck argument side of things, you have a 3/4 ton diesel, and unfortunately that heavy engine means you don't have a ton of weight capacity to play with. I'd go get the truck weighed and see what the rear axle capacity has left empty, the you can see how much you can "legally" carry.  We could start a war with this on an RV site, but I would be OK with being at the limit or a little over, say 300-500 lbs. but not 1000.  The truck is built for it, but the tag on the door says otherwise. 

Looking on page 20 on the 2011 Ford Towing Guide,

 https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/2011 RV and Trailer Towing Guide.pdf 

it says you can pull a 14,500 lb. 5th wheel, and since they figure 15-20% pin weight for a 5th wheel, you could conclude without too much drama that a max pin weight for your truck would be between 2475 and 2900 lbs. 

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

8 minutes ago, PGHFiend said:

If your truck doesn't already have load range E tires, it really should, they were factory equipment.  I really love my Firestone airbags and Airlift compressor, made a tremendous difference in load handling and stability. 

On the truck argument side of things, you have a 3/4 ton diesel, and unfortunately that heavy engine means you don't have a ton of weight capacity to play with. I'd go get the truck weighed and see what the rear axle capacity has left empty, the you can see how much you can "legally" carry.  We could start a war with this on an RV site, but I would be OK with being at the limit or a little over, say 300-500 lbs. but not 1000.  The truck is built for it, but the tag on the door says otherwise. 

Looking on page 20 on the 2011 Ford Towing Guide,

 https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/2011 RV and Trailer Towing Guide.pdf 

it says you can pull a 14,500 lb. 5th wheel, and since they figure 15-20% pin weight for a 5th wheel, you could conclude without too much drama that a max pin weight for your truck would be between 2475 and 2900 lbs. 

First thank you.

Second... okay... but isn't that where the springs come into play?  If the engine is the same, in the F350 (one-ton) as our F250 (3/4 ton), then all we're looking at, is what the rear axle can carry.  Am I understanding that correctly?   If this is the case, I believe Ford uses the same rear axle.. but beefier springs to handle more payload, which brings us back to installing Timbren Springs.

[PGHFiend 140]

13 minutes ago, twiceblessed....nacole said:

First thank you.

Second... okay... but isn't that where the springs come into play?  If the engine is the same, in the F350 (one-ton) as our F250 (3/4 ton), then all we're looking at, is what the rear axle can carry.  Am I understanding that correctly?   If this is the case, I believe Ford uses the same rear axle.. but beefier springs to handle more payload, which brings us back to installing Timbren Springs.

Yes, "technically" the trucks are the same, though the F-350 does have a hydro-boost brake system that adds some assistance to the driver, the rest is equal.  It's the sticker on the door jamb that makes the weight an issue.  If you were using this truck to haul commercially and you were found to over the gross weight, they would fine you and make you unload some weight before moving again.  You're not commercially operating the truck, though you should follow the same guidelines, however, I recognize the identical components in the two vehicles, therefore I say tow on.  But, that wont help you any if you are playing by the rules. 

On the other hand, here is a review for the Timbren springs from etrailer.com.  This genius has a truck same as yours, rated to tow 14,500 and he has 24,000 pounds on a trailer, PLUS the trailer!

"by: BK12/16/2014

 

2012 Ford F-250, no overload springs. Loaded 24,000 lbs on a 32' gooseneck. Pickup would squat too far. Installed Timbrem rear suspension enhancement and pickup runs almost level and rides great!! All I needed to handle the load. Great product!! Would recommend to anyone looking for overload springs. Installed in 30 minutes!!"

 

 

Personally, I prefer the airbags because I can adjust the ride height as needed, which is important to me and my sloped driveway.  So if I need to lower the rear end to clear an overhead obstacle, or prevent the rear of the trailer from dragging, I can dump out the air (which I do each time leaving and coming home to the house with the 5th wheel).  Need to raise the truck because the trailer landing gear is jammed?, no problem, just add air. 

 165636

[BigTom 76]

Does your 2500 have semi floating axles or full floating rear axle, 3500 usually has heavier rear bearings and hubs than a 2500

[BigTom 76]

Another than to consider, a large used truck just to tow with and a smaller w/better millage vehicle to daily drive. 

[DaveInTN 3,247]

I understand the benefits of the Fiver, but for the cost of a new fifth wheel and either upgrades to the truck or potentially a new truck, have you considered a motorhome with a small toad?  The toad would be a more economical daily driver, unless you need a truck anyways, and could still be a small truck, jeep, or SUV if he doesn't want to drive a sedan.  

[LONE-STAR 370]

One more thing is if you go with a dually you will also be able to get a lower gear ratio which will increase your towing capacity. That said if you can get by without a dually I would go single rear wheel 1 ton. I have both, dually is a pain compared to my single rear wheel.

 

[bhall 115]

8 hours ago, twiceblessed....nacole said:

Then why not modify the rear end of what we've got?  We've read about air bags, but talking with a few shops, they all said airbags were not the way to go, but to (instead) install Timbren springs.  That and a different (rated) tire.  Unless we went with a 2017 Ford or a dually, tow capacity does not change much from the 2011 F250.

I think you might be getting confused about towing capacity vs payload capacity.  The majority of the time, trucks will run out of payload capacity before they get to their towing limit.  If you look at the video posted above by Lone-Star, they show at 1:57 the payload capacity that you need to know.  Air bags and Timbrens do not Increase your payload capacity legally but will definitely eliminate the squatting.  Back to the video, at 2:07, it shows the axle/gvw rating sticker for the same truck.  This truck is showing a gvw of 10,000lbs with a front axle rating of 4,800lbs and a rear axle rating of 6,100lbs. for a total of 10,900lbs.   However, that particular truck came from the factory with a curb weight of 7,188lbs and a payload capacity of 2,812lbs.  A lot of people will ignore the payload capacity rating will load it up to the total axle ratings of 10,900 instead of the gross vehicle weight of 10,000 and consider themselves to be safe.  That may be true and the vehicle does have the capability to handle that weight, but it can be argued they are being negligent and are liable to any lawsuits and such if an accident happened and they are over the payload capacity.

Now, if you move to a 350/3500 Single rear wheel, you'll probably pick up an extra 900-1000lbs of payload which is probably adequate for the 5ers you are looking at with your family and little ewok in the cab.  If you move up to the dually, the payload capacity increase will be even much greater.

 

[bhall 115]

6 hours ago, BigTom said:

Does your 2500 have semi floating axles or full floating rear axle, 3500 usually has heavier rear bearings and hubs than a 2500

I'm not sure if you're asking me or Nacole as she has a 250 and I have a 2500.  Anyway, I have a full floating axle.

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

 

12 hours ago, DaveInTN said:

I understand the benefits of the Fiver, but for the cost of a new fifth wheel and either upgrades to the truck or potentially a new truck, have you considered a motorhome with a small toad?  The toad would be a more economical daily driver, unless you need a truck anyways, and could still be a small truck, jeep, or SUV if he doesn't want to drive a sedan.  

There is a lot about a moho that we like however, to answer your question... no.  The reason for this, is we are looking to make a change so that we can have a larger living room area.  Because we camp so much and (more so) because of Tom's back, having a comfortable living area for him to sit at during the evening has become a top priority.  Most driveables (at least the ones in our budget) do not have any more of a living room area, than our current TT.   Also, we've found having a truck very convenient for other things in life, so I'd rather not get rid of that.

11 hours ago, LONE-STAR said:

One more thing is if you go with a dually you will also be able to get a lower gear ratio which will increase your towing capacity. That said if you can get by without a dually I would go single rear wheel 1 ton. I have both, dually is a pain compared to my single rear wheel.

 

Thank you.  The video was interesting... but (for me) it just reinforced that if you modify, your F250 becomes an F350 as the body, engine and suspension are the same.  I do understand why (some) in the industry will say that it's not however, let's be clear:  I think they say that to cover their butts.  This way, if something goes wrong, they can say they tried to tell you.  Even Ford hasn't been able to explain the difference to us, if we made modifications.  Now, a dually I can see a change there...but a SRW F250 modified vs a SRW F350, I cannot.  What makes this a hard choice for us, is we are not looking to pull something that would exceed our truck's current rating, but (rather) something that would max it out. 

8 hours ago, bhall said:

I think you might be getting confused about towing capacity vs payload capacity.  The majority of the time, trucks will run out of payload capacity before they get to their towing limit.  If you look at the video posted above by Lone-Star, they show at 1:57 the payload capacity that you need to know.  Air bags and Timbrens do not Increase your payload capacity legally but will definitely eliminate the squatting.  Back to the video, at 2:07, it shows the axle/gvw rating sticker for the same truck.  This truck is showing a gvw of 10,000lbs with a front axle rating of 4,800lbs and a rear axle rating of 6,100lbs. for a total of 10,900lbs.   However, that particular truck came from the factory with a curb weight of 7,188lbs and a payload capacity of 2,812lbs.  A lot of people will ignore the payload capacity rating will load it up to the total axle ratings of 10,900 instead of the gross vehicle weight of 10,000 and consider themselves to be safe.  That may be true and the vehicle does have the capability to handle that weight, but it can be argued they are being negligent and are liable to any lawsuits and such if an accident happened and they are over the payload capacity.

Now, if you move to a 350/3500 Single rear wheel, you'll probably pick up an extra 900-1000lbs of payload which is probably adequate for the 5ers you are looking at with your family and little ewok in the cab.  If you move up to the dually, the payload capacity increase will be even much greater.

 

I think we're on the same page, with towing capacity vs payload.  We know that our Ford does not have a huge payload, but the springs will help with this.  Additionally, the 5th wheels we're looking at have a hitch weight of 2100# or less (total weight, once the rig is filled, of 13,000# and under).  We do understand that those numbers put us at the top of what our F250 is currently rated for, which is why we are looking to install the springs to help.  Going to an F350 SRW does not seem to be a huge benefit.  The benefit would be a dually, but that does not sound overly appealing... but we want to be safe, so we still haven't ruled it out.  If we buy a different rig, we might try our F250 and see how it feels, then move to a dually if it's not comfortable.  We would also change out the truck's breaks, as well as possible change the rig's to Kodiac Disc brakes.  If we could afford the 2017 F250, we'd probably do that as Ford made some changes. 

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

 

12 hours ago, DaveInTN said:

I understand the benefits of the Fiver, but for the cost of a new fifth wheel and either upgrades to the truck or potentially a new truck, have you considered a motorhome with a small toad?  The toad would be a more economical daily driver, unless you need a truck anyways, and could still be a small truck, jeep, or SUV if he doesn't want to drive a sedan.  

There is a lot about a moho that we like however, to answer your question... no.  The reason for this, is we are looking to make a change so that we can have a larger living room area.  Because we camp so much and (more so) because of Tom's back, having a comfortable living area for him to sit at during the evening has become a top priority.  Most driveables (at least the ones in our budget) do not have any more of a living room area, than our current TT.   Also, we've found having a truck very convenient for other things in life, so I'd rather not get rid of that.

11 hours ago, LONE-STAR said:

One more thing is if you go with a dually you will also be able to get a lower gear ratio which will increase your towing capacity. That said if you can get by without a dually I would go single rear wheel 1 ton. I have both, dually is a pain compared to my single rear wheel.

 

Thank you.  The video was interesting... but (for me) it just reinforced that if you modify, your F250 becomes an F350 as the body, engine and suspension are the same.  I do understand why (some) in the industry will say that it's not however, let's be clear:  I think they say that to cover their butts.  This way, if something goes wrong, they can say they tried to tell you.  Even Ford hasn't been able to explain the difference to us, if we made modifications.  Now, a dually I can see a change there...but a SRW F250 modified vs a SRW F350, I cannot.  What makes this a hard choice for us, is we are not looking to pull something that would exceed our truck's current rating, but (rather) something that would max it out. 

8 hours ago, bhall said:

I think you might be getting confused about towing capacity vs payload capacity.  The majority of the time, trucks will run out of payload capacity before they get to their towing limit.  If you look at the video posted above by Lone-Star, they show at 1:57 the payload capacity that you need to know.  Air bags and Timbrens do not Increase your payload capacity legally but will definitely eliminate the squatting.  Back to the video, at 2:07, it shows the axle/gvw rating sticker for the same truck.  This truck is showing a gvw of 10,000lbs with a front axle rating of 4,800lbs and a rear axle rating of 6,100lbs. for a total of 10,900lbs.   However, that particular truck came from the factory with a curb weight of 7,188lbs and a payload capacity of 2,812lbs.  A lot of people will ignore the payload capacity rating will load it up to the total axle ratings of 10,900 instead of the gross vehicle weight of 10,000 and consider themselves to be safe.  That may be true and the vehicle does have the capability to handle that weight, but it can be argued they are being negligent and are liable to any lawsuits and such if an accident happened and they are over the payload capacity.

Now, if you move to a 350/3500 Single rear wheel, you'll probably pick up an extra 900-1000lbs of payload which is probably adequate for the 5ers you are looking at with your family and little ewok in the cab.  If you move up to the dually, the payload capacity increase will be even much greater.

 

I think we're on the same page, with towing capacity vs payload.  We know that our Ford does not have a huge payload, but the springs will help with this.  Additionally, the 5th wheels we're looking at have a hitch weight of 2100# or less (total weight, once the rig is filled, of 13,000# and under).  We do understand that those numbers put us at the top of what our F250 is currently rated for, which is why we are looking to install the springs to help.  Going to an F350 SRW does not seem to be a huge benefit.  The benefit would be a dually, but that does not sound overly appealing... but we want to be safe, so we still haven't ruled it out.  If we buy a different rig, we might try our F250 and see how it feels, then move to a dually if it's not comfortable.  We would also change out the truck's breaks, as well as possible change the rig's to Kodiac Disc brakes.  If we could afford the 2017 F250, we'd probably do that as Ford made some changes. 

[DaveInTN 3,247]

7 hours ago, twiceblessed....nacole said:

 

There is a lot about a moho that we like however, to answer your question... no.  The reason for this, is we are looking to make a change so that we can have a larger living room area.  Because we camp so much and (more so) because of Tom's back, having a comfortable living area for him to sit at during the evening has become a top priority.  Most driveables (at least the ones in our budget) do not have any more of a living room area, than our current TT.   Also, we've found having a truck very convenient for other things in life, so I'd rather not get rid of that.

 

I completely get it.  I've loved our motorhomes and I've loved our trailers.  And while we have a motorhome at the moment, that likely won't be for long.  And if I sell the motorhome, what will be the first purchase I make with the proceeds?  A truck.  LOL.  

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

1 hour ago, DaveInTN said:

I completely get it.  I've loved our motorhomes and I've loved our trailers.  And while we have a motorhome at the moment, that likely won't be for long.  And if I sell the motorhome, what will be the first purchase I make with the proceeds?  A truck.  LOL.  

?

[LONE-STAR 370]

If you are not exceeding the limits  of your current truck I would use it and see how it goes.

 

I was considering a 2017 f350 when I thought they were making a mega cab version. The original rumors were that they were going to build one, but they didn't. 

So that's why I switched to Ram I really thought I would miss my ford because I loved that truck. But I haven't missed it at all, I really like having the mega cab. At times I miss my long bed and larger fuel tank, but most of the time I am glad I have a short bed now. 

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

34 minutes ago, LONE-STAR said:

If you are not exceeding the limits  of your current truck I would use it and see how it goes.

 

I was considering a 2017 f350 when I thought they were making a mega cab version. The original rumors were that they were going to build one, but they didn't. 

So that's why I switched to Ram I really thought I would miss my ford because I loved that truck. But I haven't missed it at all, I really like having the mega cab. At times I miss my long bed and larger fuel tank, but most of the time I am glad I have a short bed now. 

Now...larger tank, that's an entirely different beast.  Our silly 26 gallon tank, drives me crazy?

[PGHFiend 140]

Nacole, Add an auxiliary fuel tank, put on motorcraft heavy duty brake pads and go. The change to 5th wheel alone will make you feel like you're not even hauling half of what you were.  I'm sure you'll be just fine, if you take your time and look ahead down the road. Many people have hauled more with less, and less with more, but you can go broke trying to get it perfect. 

[LONE-STAR 370]

2 hours ago, twiceblessed....nacole said:

Now...larger tank, that's an entirely different beast.  Our silly 26 gallon tank, drives me crazy?

I went from 38 to 31 doesn't sound like much but it makes a difference when towing. Now 2017 super duty has nice tank sizes 39 gal on short  bed and 49 gal on long bed

[LONE-STAR 370]

18 minutes ago, PGHFiend said:

you can go broke trying to get it perfect. 

That is the truth. I haven't liked our current  trailer since the day we bought it. I found what I want but I just can't bring myself to take the loss of trading it in. Plus  buying a more expensive trailer that we only spend 3 to 4 weeks a year in. 

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

11 hours ago, LONE-STAR said:

I went from 38 to 31 doesn't sound like much but it makes a difference when towing. Now 2017 super duty has nice tank sizes 39 gal on short  bed and 49 gal on long bed

It sounds like a lot to me... depending on (towing) gas mileage, that's another 70 - 80 miles of not having to stop.

[bhall 115]

I love and hate my 36 gallon tank. Great for towing. Not so great at the pump when you are on fumes and want to fill up and the card won't authorize a transaction over $75.

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[Duane 152]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 11:42 AM, bhall said:

I love and hate my 36 gallon tank. Great for towing. Not so great at the pump when you are on fumes and want to fill up and the card won't authorize a transaction over $75.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bob, you think that is bad, I have the same issue with the 75 gallon tank attached to my Ford...  A F53 Motorhome chassis. I have managed to find a few stations that will allow a $100 charge, but they are few and far between.  I just usually keep my credit card in my pocket and not put it back in my wallet until I am done.

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

On 1/25/2017 at 11:42 AM, bhall said:

I love and hate my 36 gallon tank. Great for towing. Not so great at the pump when you are on fumes and want to fill up and the card won't authorize a transaction over $75.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

4 minutes ago, Duane said:

Bob, you think that is bad, I have the same issue with the 75 gallon tank attached to my Ford...  A F53 Motorhome chassis. I have managed to find a few stations that will allow a $100 charge, but they are few and far between.  I just usually keep my credit card in my pocket and not put it back in my wallet until I am done.

 Does this apply to the truck stops as well?