River Country Again

[Jknezek 1]

I would like to be contrary, but at this point I think Fort Wilderness has about pushed the envelope on the value of the campground as far as it can go and I'm of two minds. At roughly $100 a night for a Preferred spot in the off season of the first week of December, it is the most I've ever spent on a campsite in 10 years of camping. But does that mean that it is overpriced? Here is my comparison.

The Tallahassee area Jellystone (actually Madison FL), has a 60' water slide, a lazy river, a splash pool, a zero entry pool, a putt putt course, a place to rent kayaks, jump pad, a couple playgrounds, walking and bike trails and a bunch of outdoor sports courts. It's a very nice, family friendly campground, with some large, shady spots and some that aren't. When everything is open, in the summer, a campsite for 4 costs $85, $12 for each additional guest. So for my family of 5 it would cost within $10 a night of what The Fort costs in the offseason for a preferred site. Now personally, I think Jellystone has more things to do, for free, than The Fort itself has, but it doesn't have a restaurant (there is crappy pizza), a show (Campfire), or quite the same level of clean and comfortable sites and bathrooms. Overall, I consider it somewhat of a wash campground to campground, but I think Jellystone is better as a place for a family to spend a few days, if all you are doing is hanging out a family friendly campground. However, if we are talking about prime season to prime season (and not holidays, as that is a whole different animal at both), Preferred costs around $135 a day (mixing a weekend day or two to the weekday rate). Now we are talking almost $40 extra per day. There is no way it is worth it, campground to campground.

But is Fort Wilderness worth it for a totally different reason? Is that extra $40 worth the convenience associated with $100 a day tickets to the parks? The benefits to staying on property are pretty large if you are spending serious time in the Parks, and you can't access those benefits cheaper than you can at Fort Wilderness. So here is my simple formula. I won't stay at Fort Wilderness as a campground. It simply makes no sense to me. There are other campgrounds that have similar amenities for less money. Are there some trade-offs? Absolutely. But the sheer money difference has thrown the calculation out of whack. Will I stay at The Fort as the best way for me to get On Property benefits? Yes I will. Fort Wilderness has lots of amenities of a moderate resort like a sit down restaurant, pool slide, special transportation, dinner show, easy access to the monorail resorts, etc. But it costs less than a value resort (unless you can find discounts or dining incentives, but that's not really happening if we are talking high season). That makes perfect sense to me. 

As with all things, your mileage may vary. 

[GaDawgFan.....Kelly 799]

On 3/20/2017 at 1:45 PM, Avatab.... Steve said:

Even a Fort Manager is at a loss to explain why people keep paying the higher price.....

I think TCD and Travisma have hit on it above, there are Three basic demographics that come to the Fort:

1. The relatively well-off older or retired couple in the big RV's

2. The Groups or extended families who can pack 10 (or more) people on each site 

3. The average Family who want to camp and/or want to save some money by driving to Disney and pitching a tent, Pop-Up or camper.

Number One doesn't mind the higher prices too much as long as they can get a site (Not saying they are Rich and don't care about the price, just that many don't have a house and/or a mortgage anymore and don't have to choose between vacation or paying bills....)

Number Two doesn't mind the higher prices too much either because they can spread the cost over 10 (or more..) people and it's the only place around they can cram that many people in (busloads!) for the same "low" cost for them.

Number Three is the category that gets hit the most with every price increase and also the ones who suffer the most when the buses start unloading next to their site, the Pool is swamped with freeloaders and their kids have to worry about getting run over by out of control golf-carts....

The Fort is increasingly targeting it's prices, services, and policies to Groups One and Two while Three is ignored.

I'd love to talk to that 30 year Manager and get his real take on the modern-day Fort and what he would do differently if he could....

 

I think you've forgotten a BIG category. There are lots of families that own RVs and stay at the Fort because using their RV is their preferred way to vacation. They prefer their RV to a value resort, and they have some disposable income. 

26 minutes ago, Jknezek said:

I would like to be contrary, but at this point I think Fort Wilderness has about pushed the envelope on the value of the campground as far as it can go and I'm of two minds. At roughly $100 a night for a Preferred spot in the off season of the first week of December, it is the most I've ever spent on a campsite in 10 years of camping. But does that mean that it is overpriced? Here is my comparison.

The Tallahassee area Jellystone (actually Madison FL), has a 60' water slide, a lazy river, a splash pool, a zero entry pool, a putt putt course, a place to rent kayaks, jump pad, a couple playgrounds, walking and bike trails and a bunch of outdoor sports courts. It's a very nice, family friendly campground, with some large, shady spots and some that aren't. When everything is open, in the summer, a campsite for 4 costs $85, $12 for each additional guest. So for my family of 5 it would cost within $10 a night of what The Fort costs in the offseason for a preferred site. Now personally, I think Jellystone has more things to do, for free, than The Fort itself has, but it doesn't have a restaurant (there is crappy pizza), a show (Campfire), or quite the same level of clean and comfortable sites and bathrooms. Overall, I consider it somewhat of a wash campground to campground, but I think Jellystone is better as a place for a family to spend a few days, if all you are doing is hanging out a family friendly campground. However, if we are talking about prime season to prime season (and not holidays, as that is a whole different animal at both), Preferred costs around $135 a day (mixing a weekend day or two to the weekday rate). Now we are talking almost $40 extra per day. There is no way it is worth it, campground to campground.

But is Fort Wilderness worth it for a totally different reason? Is that extra $40 worth the convenience associated with $100 a day tickets to the parks? The benefits to staying on property are pretty large if you are spending serious time in the Parks, and you can't access those benefits cheaper than you can at Fort Wilderness. So here is my simple formula. I won't stay at Fort Wilderness as a campground. It simply makes no sense to me. There are other campgrounds that have similar amenities for less money. Are there some trade-offs? Absolutely. But the sheer money difference has thrown the calculation out of whack. Will I stay at The Fort as the best way for me to get On Property benefits? Yes I will. Fort Wilderness has lots of amenities of a moderate resort like a sit down restaurant, pool slide, special transportation, dinner show, easy access to the monorail resorts, etc. But it costs less than a value resort (unless you can find discounts or dining incentives, but that's not really happening if we are talking high season). That makes perfect sense to me. 

As with all things, your mileage may vary. 

Do I like the high prices? No! Do I agree with this? Yes! All the campgrounds with nice amenities even close to the Fort's are expensive. 

 

[WannaBeImagineer 98]

3 hours ago, Jknezek said:

I would like to be contrary, but at this point I think Fort Wilderness has about pushed the envelope on the value of the campground as far as it can go and I'm of two minds. At roughly $100 a night for a Preferred spot in the off season of the first week of December, it is the most I've ever spent on a campsite in 10 years of camping. But does that mean that it is overpriced? Here is my comparison.

The Tallahassee area Jellystone (actually Madison FL), has a 60' water slide, a lazy river, a splash pool, a zero entry pool, a putt putt course, a place to rent kayaks, jump pad, a couple playgrounds, walking and bike trails and a bunch of outdoor sports courts. It's a very nice, family friendly campground, with some large, shady spots and some that aren't. When everything is open, in the summer, a campsite for 4 costs $85, $12 for each additional guest. So for my family of 5 it would cost within $10 a night of what The Fort costs in the offseason for a preferred site. Now personally, I think Jellystone has more things to do, for free, than The Fort itself has, but it doesn't have a restaurant (there is crappy pizza), a show (Campfire), or quite the same level of clean and comfortable sites and bathrooms. Overall, I consider it somewhat of a wash campground to campground, but I think Jellystone is better as a place for a family to spend a few days, if all you are doing is hanging out a family friendly campground. However, if we are talking about prime season to prime season (and not holidays, as that is a whole different animal at both), Preferred costs around $135 a day (mixing a weekend day or two to the weekday rate). Now we are talking almost $40 extra per day. There is no way it is worth it, campground to campground.

But is Fort Wilderness worth it for a totally different reason? Is that extra $40 worth the convenience associated with $100 a day tickets to the parks? The benefits to staying on property are pretty large if you are spending serious time in the Parks, and you can't access those benefits cheaper than you can at Fort Wilderness. So here is my simple formula. I won't stay at Fort Wilderness as a campground. It simply makes no sense to me. There are other campgrounds that have similar amenities for less money. Are there some trade-offs? Absolutely. But the sheer money difference has thrown the calculation out of whack. Will I stay at The Fort as the best way for me to get On Property benefits? Yes I will. Fort Wilderness has lots of amenities of a moderate resort like a sit down restaurant, pool slide, special transportation, dinner show, easy access to the monorail resorts, etc. But it costs less than a value resort (unless you can find discounts or dining incentives, but that's not really happening if we are talking high season). That makes perfect sense to me. 

As with all things, your mileage may vary. 

Great explanation and I agree when you compare to other resort campgrounds the prices are close.  

I really like camping, especially at State and National Parks, but when I go to the Fort it's for a different type of experience, I'm going for the Parks and the Fort Resort.  I don't like how things have changed at the Fort but if I want to camp at Disney World that's where I'm going, it's still a great resort (not as good as it was but still good).  And when I don't want to pay the crazy prices for a camping spot, I instead pay the crazy prices for a Disney resort room because I like Disney World and I like staying onsite.

WBI

[ftwildernessguy 778]

Life is kinetic.  You either change with it or you die.  It's that simple.  I have many wonderful memories of our first trip to the Fort nearly 30 years ago.  It is certainly different today, but if I continuously compare it to that first time, I will be more frustrated than I am anyway.  That's why the 3000 loop exists.  It is the Fort that never was but always will be.

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

20 hours ago, GaDawgFan.....Kelly said:

I think you've forgotten a BIG category. There are lots of families that own RVs and stay at the Fort because using their RV is their preferred way to vacation. They prefer their RV to a value resort, and they have some disposable income. 

 

Yes, that actually describes us (and probably many here on FF). I was trying to keep it simple and wrapped it all in the "Average Families who want to camp and/or want to save money" But your description also works.

There is also some crossover/overlap with the first two categories as well. Not everyone fits neatly into one or the other.

The larger point is that the price increases, value-per-dollar, and the uncontrolled groups will always affect the "Average" families the hardest. They are the least able to justify paying more for less. And as a result the percentage of groups and more well-off RVers will tend to get larger versus the "average family".

Does Disney understand or care that their policies are slowly turning the Fort into one big "Group Camping Area" at the expense of what Walt originally wanted the Fort to be?

 

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

On 3/20/2017 at 3:44 PM, Starbuc71 said:

I couldn't have categorized it any better. Unfortunately I fall into the last group. Going back to the discussion of DVC at the fort, I wish they would do extra premium lake sites or something that DVC would really work out. They could add other  extra amenities such as a private pool other food choices and what not.  I think a lot of campers would look into DVC for that

I know the "DVC Fort sites" have been discussed quite a bit, and apparently won't work in the DVC system. I still like the idea though. It would give the current Disney bean-counters a concrete reason to finally build more campsites to meet the crazy demand.

Another idea that might work that I've brought up before (besides re-opening River Country!  LOL) would be to extend the Value-Moderate-Deluxe idea to Campsites as well.

Value: Build a large, simple, No-frills CG that could be Affordable above all else. A large parking lot with electric, a few water spigots and one or two dump stations would do nicely.

Moderate:  The Fort As-Is would be great for this.

Deluxe:  The 3000 Loop of course!  But build a whole separate Campground from scratch, designed to be the Ultimate RV Resort.

And maybe a sub-category: Group-Value Sites. Build a separate area or whole CG just for Groups and Extended Families that want to bring their Dishwashers and Refrigerators from home and plug them in under an EZ-Up.....    

Of course, all of that would require Disney to care about Campers and Walt's idea of "Affordable Family Camping at Disney". We know they don't, and probably look at the Fort as a Land Place-Holder until they can get around to putting up another BLT or two, maybe with a few waterfront cabins in front of them adorned with leftover Fort Wilderness bumper stickers on the walls as a "Theme" of what used to be there.   

 

[Travisma 1,317]

3 minutes ago, Avatab.... Steve said:

Yes, that actually describes us (and probably many here on FF). I was trying to keep it simple and wrapped it all in the "Average Families who want to camp and/or want to save money" But your description also works.

There is also some crossover/overlap with the first two categories as well. Not everyone fits neatly into one or the other.

The larger point is that the price increases, value-per-dollar, and the uncontrolled groups will always affect the "Average" families the hardest. They are the least able to justify paying more for less. And as a result the percentage of groups and more well-off RVers will tend to get larger versus smaller families.

Does Disney understand or care that their policies are slowly turning the Fort into one big "Group Camping Area" at the expense of what Walt originally wanted the Fort to be?

 

Only if they lost a boatload of $$$ and got bad press for some really bad incident that occurred at the Fort.

With some of large groups coming in and turning the loops into an all night drunk fest/night club/screaming match sooner or later there is going to be a fatality of some sort, car accident, cart accident, stabbing/gun shot.  If something like that happens, hopefully (not a good choice of words) it's confined to their own group and not an innocent bystander/next door neighbor.

Maybe and I stress maybe, Disney will then start cracking down on this type of behavior and turn the Fort back into a family destination.

But with the unchecked drunkenness/bad behavior allowed at EPCOT, I don't see them tightening up the rules at the Fort anytime soon.

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

On 3/23/2017 at 9:10 AM, Travisma said:

Only if they lost a boatload of $$$ and got bad press for some really bad incident that occurred at the Fort.

With some of large groups coming in and turning the loops into an all night drunk fest/night club/screaming match sooner or later there is going to be a fatality of some sort, car accident, cart accident, stabbing/gun shot.  If something like that happens, hopefully (not a good choice of words) it's confined to their own group and not an innocent bystander/next door neighbor.

Maybe and I stress maybe, Disney will then start cracking down on this type of behavior and turn the Fort back into a family destination.

But with the unchecked drunkenness/bad behavior allowed at EPCOT, I don't see them tightening up the rules at the Fort anytime soon.

I wish I didn't, but I have to agree. It seems every decision now is made strictly according to the bottom line as opposed to what is right or wrong, or even what makes for a better "guest experience".

Only when the numbers add up will anything change for the better. And when something truly bad does happen it will probably just speed up plans to replace the Fort with more waterfront "cabins" and ugly DVC towers as the path of least resistance and higher profits....  

 

[caveat lector 181]

I like the Fort and a lot of the folks I've met because of it. Are there blemishes....sure.  is it a "for profit" business....sure. I don't care and still look forward to each visit.  Some day the math or value Calc might not workout.  The great memories I have there with my family will probably always be the clincher.

Sorry to be in the minority of this debate, but for now, the Fort still makes me smile.

No,I haven't been drinking. :)

[LONE-STAR 370]

1 hour ago, caveat lector said:

I like the Fort and a lot of the folks I've met because of it. Are there blemishes....sure.  is it a "for profit" business....sure. I don't care and still look forward to each visit.  Some day the math or value Calc might not workout.  The great memories I have there with my family will probably always be the clincher.

Sorry to be in the minority of this debate, but for now, the Fort still makes me smile.

No,I haven't been drinking. :)

The Fort still makes me smile and I am still forking out the cash to go. Just maybe not as much. But that is mainly the drive.

[h2odivers...Ray 952]

10 hours ago, caveat lector said:

I like the Fort and a lot of the folks I've met because of it. Are there blemishes....sure.  is it a "for profit" business....sure. I don't care and still look forward to each visit.  Some day the math or value Calc might not workout.  The great memories I have there with my family will probably always be the clincher.

Sorry to be in the minority of this debate, but for now, the Fort still makes me smile.

No,I haven't been drinking. :)

I don't think your in the minority. I think most people look forward to their visit.  And love the memories they've made and will make.   As for me. This is a way to vent about changes and policies that frustrate the heck out of me and others. 

If this was a board about DVC we would probably be venting about some of the changes that have happened over the years.   

Most people don't like and/or embrace change.  They don't want their cheese moved. 

[caveat lector 181]

13 hours ago, LONE-STAR said:

The Fort still makes me smile and I am still forking out the cash to go. Just maybe not as much. But that is mainly the drive.

 

4 hours ago, h2odivers...Ray said:

I don't think your in the minority. I think most people look forward to their visit.  And love the memories they've made and will make.   As for me. This is a way to vent about changes and policies that frustrate the heck out of me and others. 

If this was a board about DVC we would probably be venting about some of the changes that have happened over the years.   

Most people don't like and/or embrace change.  They don't want their cheese moved. 

Fair enough gentlemen. Both are valid points.

I don't have a trip planned right now and it weighs heavy. :)

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

15 hours ago, caveat lector said:

No,I haven't been drinking. :)

Well there's your problem right there!  

 

[geoffdaddy 33]

I think there are two changes that could benefit the Fort for regular people... they are admittedly small things, but I think they could have a big impact:

 

1. Reduce the number of people allowed on a reservation from 10 to 6.

2. Only two parking passes per reservation.

 

Are those the only things they could do? No, but I think those two things would be a really good start.

[geoffdaddy 33]

On 3/22/2017 at 11:00 AM, Jknezek said:

The Tallahassee area Jellystone (actually Madison FL), has a 60' water slide, a lazy river, a splash pool, a zero entry pool, a putt putt course, a place to rent kayaks, jump pad, a couple playgrounds, walking and bike trails and a bunch of outdoor sports courts. It's a very nice, family friendly campground, with some large, shady spots and some that aren't. When everything is open, in the summer, a campsite for 4 costs $85, $12 for each additional guest. So for my family of 5 it would cost within $10 a night of what The Fort costs in the offseason for a preferred site. Now personally, I think Jellystone has more things to do, for free, than The Fort itself has, but it doesn't have a restaurant (there is crappy pizza), a show (Campfire), or quite the same level of clean and comfortable sites and bathrooms. Overall, I consider it somewhat of a wash campground to campground, but I think Jellystone is better as a place for a family to spend a few days, if all you are doing is hanging out a family friendly campground. However, if we are talking about prime season to prime season (and not holidays, as that is a whole different animal at both), Preferred costs around $135 a day (mixing a weekend day or two to the weekday rate). Now we are talking almost $40 extra per day. There is no way it is worth it, campground to campground.

 

Maybe it's nice, I dunno... but we drive past that place most times on the way to the Fort, and the whole place for the most part is plainly visible from I-10. I think the Fort would beat it hands down for being more secluded looking. I'd have a hard time paying a premium price for it based on location alone.

[articfox676 11]

8 hours ago, geoffdaddy said:

I think there are two changes that could benefit the Fort for regular people... they are admittedly small things, but I think they could have a big impact:

 

1. Reduce the number of people allowed on a reservation from 10 to 6.

2. Only two parking passes per reservation.

 

Are those the only things they could do? No, but I think those two things would be a really good start.

Totally agree with your two points.  Ten people per site is way to many.  Many sites have 3 vehicles plus (golf carts, utility trailers, and so on).  Isn't that what overflow is for?

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

15 hours ago, articfox676 said:

Totally agree with your two points.  Ten people per site is way to many.  Many sites have 3 vehicles plus (golf carts, utility trailers, and so on).  Isn't that what overflow is for?

I'm pretty sure that overflow is where the freeloaders are supposed to park after they drop off their coolers, grills, chairs, EZ-ups, wagons, charcoal, and kids at the pool.  (Unless they can find a spot to park on the tetherball court on the 1500 loop of one of the 15 minute parking spots in front of the Trading Post).

TCD

[DaveInTN 3,247]

1 minute ago, Tri-Circle-D said:

I'm pretty sure that overflow is where the freeloaders are supposed to park after they drop off their coolers, grills, chairs, EZ-ups, wagons, charcoal, and kids at the pool.  (Unless they can find a spot to park on the tetherball court on the 1500 loop of one of the 15 minute parking spots in front of the Trading Post).

TCD

The sign by the Trading Post parking needs to be changed to say Quince Minutos.  Those spots were filled up on Saturday, as was the picnic pavilion.   

[Jknezek 1]

On 3/22/2017 at 2:49 PM, WannaBeImagineer said:

On 3/28/2017 at 11:04 AM, geoffdaddy said:

Maybe it's nice, I dunno... but we drive past that place most times on the way to the Fort, and the whole place for the most part is plainly visible from I-10. I think the Fort would beat it hands down for being more secluded looking. I'd have a hard time paying a premium price for it based on location alone.

You aren't paying for the location. You are paying for all the things available at the campground. Frankly, there is simply more there than even at Ft. Wilderness for families to do (campground only obviously!). But you are right, you can see most from the interstate and it's not the same quality for sites. There is no real perfect comparison for Ft. Wilderness, but there are other campgrounds that have tons of family amenities. Most that are in the same realm as The Fort cost close to $100 a night. Which was the point. The Fort is expensive, more expensive than the comparable campgrounds you can find, but not necessarily obscenely more expensive....

 

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

28 minutes ago, DaveInTN said:

The sign by the Trading Post parking needs to be changed to say Quince Minutos.  Those spots were filled up on Saturday, as was the picnic pavilion.   

Some things never change.

TCD

[ftwildernessguy 778]

Fort is good.  I like.

[Grumpy and Grandma 740]

Lake Magic is $70 a night for a gravel site and you pay for internet.

[GaDawgFan.....Kelly 799]

New permit filed? 

http://blogmickey.com/2018/03/breaking-disney-exploring-development-river-country-site/

[h2odivers...Ray 952]

17 minutes ago, GaDawgFan.....Kelly said:

New permit filed? 

http://blogmickey.com/2018/03/breaking-disney-exploring-development-river-country-site/

Interesting.Interesting.

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

17 minutes ago, GaDawgFan.....Kelly said:

New permit filed? 

http://blogmickey.com/2018/03/breaking-disney-exploring-development-river-country-site/

Wow, the author phoned that article in. 

He could at least have provided a link to the permit application. 

That said, I heard from a semi-reliable source that the River Country DVC project is about to be moved to a front burner, so there may be something to this. Then again, how long have we been hearing about this now?

TCD