Fiend Advocacy?

[Santa ... Shannon 160]

So now that Jose is gone I was thinking it might be a good time for us, as the largest group of Fort Wilderness guests, to write a letter to the new management suggesting some areas that need attention. What do you think? Should FF.net get involved in advocacy? I think such a letter would carry a lot more weight coming from us versus coming from me. As a group we represent what, maybe 2000 booking nights a year, and I alone am maybe 12 nights. Anyway, I think we need to really draw attention to the misuse by phantom campers, underage cart drivers, lack of clarity on pet policy, and many others. What say you?

[BigTom 76]

If Disney is reading this forum as we think they are, they already know the problems we have with the way things are being run.

[mouseketab.....Carol 1,261]

I think the new management is already looking at the rules more closely. I've read more and more enforcement of some of the rules. Especially when it comes to Loop 1500 and 2000.

A couple next to me last week, had a partial hookup booked with a popup, but they brought a pet. The front desk told them they couldn't stay in a popup with a pet. After discussing with management and the guest telling them they had no parks planned and did have air conditioning, they moved them to full hookup and allowed them to stay.

I've also read reports where folks with smaller trailers, but not a popup were told they couldn't stay in partial.

[Travisma 1,317]

An email campaign to the new manager may help (or may not)

If everyone sent the same basic email stating the facts about the size of the group like Shannon said and listed the main gripes, then added any personal incidents, it might draw some attention.

Ghost campers we will have to live with.  As long as they have paid for the site, I don't see any way that Disney could say anything about someone not actually putting a foot on the site. Does it stink and is it aggravating, it sure is.  But it's no different than going to a sold out concert/sporting event and seeing hundreds of good empty seats while you are sitting in the best available nosebleed section, or seeing pictures in the next days news because you couldn't get a seat

I would address the lack of clearly stated rules before you book i.e. pets/pet loops, allowable types of campers in partial loops again as Shannon stated

Underage drivers

Lack of security and the ability to enforce rules

Weekend only black outs

Lack of maintenance/loss of the Fort feel/uniqueness (covered wagon falling apart and hidden).

If he/she even read and responded to a few that would be a miracle.

[Travisma 1,317]

15 minutes ago, mouseketab.....Carol said:

I think the new management is already looking at the rules more closely. I've read more and more enforcement of some of the rules. Especially when it comes to Loop 1500 and 2000.

A couple next to me last week, had a partial hookup booked with a popup, but they brought a pet. The front desk told them they couldn't stay in a popup with a pet. After discussing with management and the guest telling them they had no parks planned and did have air conditioning, they moved them to full hookup and allowed them to stay.

I've also read reports where folks with smaller trailers, but not a popup were told they couldn't stay in partial.

I had seen a couple of similar posts (might've been the same ones), let's hope its the start of a trend.

If they only followed their own rules things would be a lot smoother.

[fladogfan aka Gretchen 259]

While looping with Carol we saw a fort ranger stop a golf cart and had the driver move the small child from his lap. 

At least I think that is what he did, we were waiting behind the cart. 

[WrigleysWagon 32]

What is point of Fort Fiends if not to improve the enjoyment of a visit to the fort?  If problems need to be addressed, let's do it!

[AuburnJen 777]

3 hours ago, BigTom said:

If Disney is reading this forum as we think they are, they already know the problems we have with the way things are being run.

Trust me, Disney is reading this forum.

[Beckers 1,136]

34 minutes ago, AuburnJen said:

Trust me, Disney is reading this forum.

Disney if your reading this, please send me some paper plates and paper napkins with Disney parks on them. My kids enjoy using them when we are missing the mouse. :)

[Seals 111]

I just got done reading  Be Our Guest: Perfecting the Art of Customer Service  for a workshop at my job and it says the first priority of Disney planning is safety. Although there are a number of valid concerns about the Fort I think the golf cart issue, and in general safety of the roads, is/should be their first priority. I haven't visited many times but I have seen kids driving carts, over filled carts and one night two drunk guys who got in a golf cart near the Settlement Hall and drove off without their lights on.  And we also were there several years ago when a child on a bike was killed after turning into the path of a bus. I know accidents can happen anywhere, but I think better enforcement of the rules would go a long way. 

[parrothead7368 aka Norm 101]

If they would just stop using the Fort as some kind of training facility for management, maybe things would get fixed. I don't know if this is the case and I've only been there twice, but from reading the boards, this seems to be the case. It seems like most cast members care, but hands are sort of tied by management to do anything. Hopefully whoever TCD met who was obviously very gung ho about his job remains and stays as positive as when he started and things will be great again.

Best Regards,

Norm

[AuburnJen 777]

2 hours ago, Beckers said:

Disney if your reading this, please send me some paper plates and paper napkins with Disney parks on them. My kids enjoy using them when we are missing the mouse. :)

Good luck with that, lol

[keith_h 420]

One suggestion I made the last time we visited was to provide short term parking for those of us directed to the office for check-in. We ended up parking along the fence as there was nothing in the overflow lot. There was plenty of room for folks to go around but a an employee decided to harass my wife until he saw me come out. I also noticed that most of the close up parking spots were reserved and used by Disney vehicles. The Fort is the only place I've seen that makes guests walk a distance for check-in as opposed to making company vehicles and employees do the walking. The person I talked to at the desk sounds like the gentleman from TCD's TR and appeared receptive to my suggestion but my guess is little will come of it unless a lot more people make the same the same request. 

[Santa ... Shannon 160]

Oh, they could take care of phantom campers. Just make a simple rule that the site must be "occupied" every night of your reservations. Unused sites will be forfeited (and rented to last-minute guests), MagicBands will be revoked, and FastPass+ selection on those bands would be lost. Security drives around at midnight and notes empty sites, bang-zoom, Disney gets to double-sell the site and word spreads REAL QUICK that the backdoor is closed! At the very least the phantoms would have to check-in and go set up a tent to appear to be occupied. And if they did then other campers who wanted those sites will at least see that they were actually booked to someone, not just sitting empty. It could even make for a fun game for fiends: taking note of which sites are phantoms and maybe moving the tents from one site to another, perhaps with a heart-felt message inside expressing how much we appreciate them booking the Fort. LOL

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

7 hours ago, Travisma said:

An email campaign to the new manager may help (or may not)

If everyone sent the same basic email stating the facts about the size of the group like Shannon said and listed the main gripes, then added any personal incidents, it might draw some attention.

Ghost campers we will have to live with.  As long as they have paid for the site, I don't see any way that Disney could say anything about someone not actually putting a foot on the site. Does it stink and is it aggravating, it sure is.  But it's no different than going to a sold out concert/sporting event and seeing hundreds of good empty seats while you are sitting in the best available nosebleed section, or seeing pictures in the next days news because you couldn't get a seat

I would address the lack of clearly stated rules before you book i.e. pets/pet loops, allowable types of campers in partial loops again as Shannon stated

Underage drivers

Lack of security and the ability to enforce rules

Weekend only black outs

Lack of maintenance/loss of the Fort feel/uniqueness (covered wagon falling apart and hidden).

If he/she even read and responded to a few that would be a miracle.

 

As far as the Phantom Campers, I don't agree that we have to accept that. There are two things driving the Phantom Camper problem:

1. Booking a site at the Fort is (usually) cheaper than any other room option on Disney property. And like all on-property "rooms", a campsite comes with all the perks.

2. Unlike hotel rooms, A campsite allows you to get those perks for up to 10 unrelated people.

Combine those two and you get why they do it. It is the cheapest way per-person to get Disney On-property perks for your Off-property group.

I believe that with a little thought, you could do a carrot/stick approach to address the issue.

Now, If it was up to me, I would recommend changing or altering the number of people allowed per-campsite policy.  Not only is it being abused by the Phantom Campers, but it is also routinely abused by large groups that cram way too many people, cars, tents, loudspeakers, golf-carts, etc etc onto one or two campsites and in doing that they end up bothering everyone around them.....

I know, I know, most big families or groups don't abuse the policy, but enough do to make it a constant complaint at the Fort. (How many pictures of overcrowded sites have we seen right here at FF?)

Here's my suggestion:  All groups of unrelated people (Scouts, Church groups, Social groups,etc) should be required to use the Group Sites, or Rent an entire loop.

And for families, do what practically every other campground does:  2 adults, 4 children per site.  Allow extra adults or children, but only with an extra charge or require them to rent another site.

If you reduce the attraction and enforce the rules, the problems created by Large Groups, either Phantom or Real, will greatly diminish.

 

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

25 minutes ago, Santa ... Shannon said:

Oh, they could take care of phantom campers. Just make a simple rule that the site must be "occupied" every night of your reservations. Unused sites will be forfeited (and rented to last-minute guests), MagicBands will be revoked, and FastPass+ selection on those bands would be lost. Security drives around at midnight and notes empty sites, bang-zoom, Disney gets to double-sell the site and word spreads REAL QUICK that the backdoor is closed! At the very least the phantoms would have to check-in and go set up a tent to appear to be occupied. And if they did then other campers who wanted those sites will at least see that they were actually booked to someone, not just sitting empty. It could even make for a fun game for fiends: taking note of which sites are phantoms and maybe moving the tents from one site to another, perhaps with a heart-felt message inside expressing how much we appreciate them booking the Fort. LOL

You were typing while I was Shannon  LOL

And I agree with your idea too.  Like so many things, a little thought followed by a little effort on the part of the Fort Management would make this problem and others practically vanish overnight  

 

[keith_h 420]

2 hours ago, Santa ... Shannon said:

.... It could even make for a fun game for fiends: taking note of which sites are phantoms and maybe moving the tents from one site to another ....

Should be a lot of fun. I'm up for it. 

[fladogfan aka Gretchen 259]

Disney could make money on this,  if the 'camper' does not put at least a tent on the site,  then WDW will be happy to do that for you.  For $$$ of course! 

[AuburnChris 193]

Disney's solution to "phantom campers" because Fort sites are cheaper than on-property hotel rooms is going to be making Fort sites not be a bargain compared to on-property hotel rooms. Are you guys telling me you can't see that coming a mile off? If you really want them to do that, please continue to complain about phantom campers. They will raise Fort rates until phantom camping is no longer a problem.

Of course, then you may feel free to complain to them that the sites are too expensive, but they will look at their bottom line and think to themselves, "Nope, we like money."

Having said that, there are some good points in this thread, cart safety foremost among them, that we all would like Disney to address. However.

Please do not start a letter-writing campaign and put Fort Fiends name to it.

While it's true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced. I'm not interested in anything that might cause Disney's relationship with us to escalate to anything beyond "bemused interest," thank you very much.

If you want to write a letter to Disney about something, go for it! Good job, you! But Jen and I, as benevolent dictators around here, would like to keep "Start a letter-writing campaign to Fort management" off the table until it's really, absolutely, necessary. I just don't see the burning issue in front of us that requires it right now.

[fotofx....Steve 34]

I see phantom campers as a non-issue to Disney. The site is paid for, what difference is it to Disney if someone is not using their water and electric and paid for it?

I personally have had to do the phantom camper once. I needed a Thursday-Sunday and it was not available anyway that I tried it. I was only able to book a Monday-Sunday so the site sat empty Monday-Wednesday. Was I happy about it, No... But with the current reservation system and not allowing you to drop dates, it was the only way to get the dates I needed.

I am sure this is happening allot more often then we see. Empty sites suck, but to Disney they made their money..
 

[Travisma 1,317]

I'm sure there are "phantom" hotel reservations also, but you just don't see them because they are behind closed doors.

As long as the site is paid for, people can choose not to set foot on it.  As long as they aren't breaking any rules there isn't much Disney can do.

Does it stink because there is a site sitting empty for X # of days.  Yes it does, because it's keeping someone else from enjoying the Fort.  It affects me more, because we try to book partial sites, and since they are the least expensive they are the ones most likely to be phantoms (if they can get them).  But imagine if they had 2 or 3 times the amount of sites at the Fort.  Would anyone care then that a site that has been paid for was sitting empty?

Maybe they need to make a deal with the phantom campers.  Book a site, tell them up front you're only doing it for the amenities, and Disney will give you a 10 to 20% discount on the price if you allow them to rebook the site.  Win-Win  Campers get a discount, Disney makes almost 2X the amount on a site.  Everyone is happy.

[BigTom 76]

I got a call from Fort Wilderness once when I had a reservation that I did not show up for and they call and wanted to know if I had forgotten, which I had, or if I had a problem on the way there. The call came early after first day. Cost me a days rental fee, but rest of reservation was canceled at no charge. So if someone does not show up, they know about it.

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

42 minutes ago, Travisma said:

I'm sure there are "phantom" hotel reservations also, but you just don't see them because they are behind closed doors.

As long as the site is paid for, people can choose not to set foot on it.  As long as they aren't breaking any rules there isn't much Disney can do.

Does it stink because there is a site sitting empty for X # of days.  Yes it does, because it's keeping someone else from enjoying the Fort.  It affects me more, because we try to book partial sites, and since they are the least expensive they are the ones most likely to be phantoms (if they can get them).  But imagine if they had 2 or 3 times the amount of sites at the Fort.  Would anyone care then that a site that has been paid for was sitting empty?

Maybe they need to make a deal with the phantom campers.  Book a site, tell them up front you're only doing it for the amenities, and Disney will give you a 10 to 20% discount on the price if you allow them to rebook the site.  Win-Win  Campers get a discount, Disney makes almost 2X the amount on a site.  Everyone is happy.

 

Good points. And if the Fort was bigger it wouldn't be as much of an issue. (although the overcrowded ones would still be)

I think most of us are tired of having reservations be such a pain in the you-know-what. And a lot of us don't appreciate someone scamming the system.

Having said that, you are correct that Disney could turn this to their advantage. As I said earlier it would take just a little creative thinking on their part.

I see a career at Disney in your future Travisma!   

 

17 minutes ago, BigTom said:

I got a call from Fort Wilderness once when I had a reservation that I did not show up for and they call and wanted to know if I had forgotten, which I had, or if I had a problem on the way there. The call came early after first day. Cost me a days rental fee, but rest of reservation was canceled at no charge. So if someone does not show up, they know about it.

 

It's a little different with the Phantom Campers, they generally will check in on time to the Fort but then never occupy the site. And you're right, the Fort does know if someone doesn't check in and will call, that also happened to us awhile back.

As Chris said above, we don't want the site prices to go up, but it's simple supply and demand. As demand increases for a limited supply price necessarily goes up until demand drops and/or supply increases. (maybe the "new" 2100 loop sites will help a little)

So, in addition to making weekends and holidays harder for the rest of us to get, scamming Disney benefits they don't deserve,  the Phantom Campers are also adding to that demand, which in turn puts even more pressure on prices to go up.   

 

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

10 hours ago, AuburnChris said:

 

While it's true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced. I'm not interested in anything that might cause Disney's relationship with us to escalate to anything beyond "bemused interest," thank you very much.

If you want to write a letter to Disney about something, go for it! Good job, you! But Jen and I, as benevolent dictators around here, would like to keep "Start a letter-writing campaign to Fort management" off the table until it's really, absolutely, necessary. I just don't see the burning issue in front of us that requires it right now.

 

"bemused interest"  That's great, and sums it up nicely  

I agree with you that it would be drawing more attention if the letter came from the Fort Fiends as a whole, but is that a bad thing?

I get that you wouldn't want them to think of us as pains in the neck, or just complainers, but it might also bring some positives to try and work with the new Fort Management as a group. 

In our State, we have "Friends" groups that are private, but associate themselves with State Parks.  Our local State Park has a group that does weekend campouts and spend some time helping the Park do projects and cleanups that they just don't have the funding for.  We are in the process of adding on to the playground there.

It's obviously not the same with a private company like Disney, but with the right approach and the right contacts it could be somewhat similar.

Not saying you aren't right to keep a low profile, but it may make sense in the future to "step out of the shadows" and advocate as a group.

 

[AuburnJen 777]

Steve, I think you did not read the last sentence of Chris's response.  He never said not ever.  He just said not now.  Chris and I are on the same page.