sherryberry 35 Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 We tried that drink from Japan the other night. I liked it - the jelly stuff in it reminds me of a jelly candy we used to eat in Japan. Kenneth was a little freaked out by the jelly. Unfortunately, my sister and I could only take a few sips before we started feeling the alcohol (we got our tolerance for alcohol from our Japanese mother!). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Memphis 105 Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Saw this on FB Video of Maelstrom boats being hauled away. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154619715245004 Company moving them was Central moving and storage, so don't know if they are gone for good or out for rehab. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tri-Circle-D 2,059 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I agree with you....I think Disney does the Maelstrom redo as inexpensively as possible. There's nothing wrong with the building, track and boats as far as we know, so why rip them all out and start over? Besides, if they were doing that, it would take 6 years. LOL at the 6 year comment. I agreed with all of this- especially the part about reusing the boats. But, now that I've seen the video posted by Memphis, I am not sure about the boats. Unless they were being taken someplace offsite to be worked on. Who's ray? Lol Leslie has fake names for everyone in her family. I don't know how she keeps them straight. So "Ray" is her husband. Not you. Sorry. The drink from Japan sounds :barf:I can't believe people were lined up that early for Hanson. Wow.I agree with you, I think they will keep te current track. The liquid peach jello was not the worst thing I've ever had to drink. I am going to have it again when my oldest DD visits for a trip to Food and Wine. I missed the Hanson craze, but I guess they were the Justin Bieber of a generation. 20 years from now, maybe we'll see the TCD twins sitting there with me in a tied dye t-shirt waiting for front row for the Justin Bieber performance at the Food and Wine Festival. I definitely thing they'll keep the track. And, I still think they'll keep the boats. :rofl3: You ought to just call the man by his real name and be done with it. So were you able to drink that whole can of whatever from Japan? It sounds disgusting. OK, I did something that I don't approve of- I let the twins have sips too. They're 19, and Twin #1 did a very good job drinking her way around Paris and London earlier this year, so a little jello sake isn't going to hurt anyone. I got to be the cool dad. They thought it was pretty good. Too bad they weren't around for the Bartles and James craze. Just saw a video online of two of the boats heading down 528 this morning on a flatbed. Wow, that was quick. I was going to go look for that video, and then Memphis posted it. You're not kidding that was quick. Those boats were still carrying passengers on Sunday night. I vote they keep the same track and I hope they do. I wouldn't mind loosing the track if they came up with something new and cool. But, that's not likely to happen, so I agree that I'd like to see them keep the same track. We tried that drink from Japan the other night. I liked it - the jelly stuff in it reminds me of a jelly candy we used to eat in Japan. Kenneth was a little freaked out by the jelly. Unfortunately, my sister and I could only take a few sips before we started feeling the alcohol (we got our tolerance for alcohol from our Japanese mother!). I thought it was OK, but it's not something I would ever seek out. I'm surprised that you felt any effect from the alcohol- I thought it was very week. Saw this on FB Video of Maelstrom boats being hauled away. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154619715245004 Company moving them was Central moving and storage, so don't know if they are gone for good or out for rehab. Very cool, Harold. Thanks for sharing. That guy did a good job with the video. But, that was also a pretty stupid thing to do while driving. TCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GOBA Mom Lynn 18 Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Hey, no problem with driving and videoing....he has a mass card on his dashboard, so he's covered.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tri-Circle-D 2,059 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Hey, no problem with driving and videoing....he has a mass card on his dashboard, so he's covered.... I missed that. So, he's good. Too bad for the people driving around him as he was weaving around. They needed mass cards too. TCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GaDawgFan.....Kelly 799 Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I was wondering if you'd try the peach drink. Sounds super weird, but I might split it with my friends just to try it. The beef, potato, and leek waffle is on my must do list. Everyone seems to love it. I think they'll keep the same track as well. But I'd say after the video it will be new boats. Bring on the Crab'less! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tri-Circle-D 2,059 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 It was time. It had to be done. TCD is going to take one for the team and go to Terra and eat a CraB'less CraB cake. Weird spelling and all. It was now about 1:30 on a nice Sunday afternoon. The crowds were starting to show up. There was quite a line for the Mexico booth: For a moment, I worried that there would be a line waiting for us at the Terra booth. But, then I remembered what they're trying to sell. Namely, this: They put that booth in what might be the best location in all of Epcot. It's booth #1. And, then they serve that stuff. The girls were willing to try the cupcake. Lucky for us there was no one in line at Terra. There were a couple of people who must not know how to read waiting for their orders, but there was no one in line to order. So we stepped right up and ordered a cupcake and CraB'less CraB Cake. Here's the cupcake. Notice the size: I told the girls that we should be glad the cupcake was miniature- it had tofu icing after all. Apparently, all the CM's working this booth were surprised that someone actually ordered something to eat, so we had to wait a bit while they threw some frozen patties on the grill: What the Fort? This stuff they are serving comes out of a box? Let's take a closer look: If I enlarge that photo, I can see that the label says something about Chick'n and the box says it's a product of Canada. So, I Googled Chick'n and Canada, and found this site: http://gardein.com/product-type/chickn/ Gardein? That name is mentioned there at the description of the CraB'less CraB cakes. I can't find those mentioned on their website. But, if you want to make some Chick'n (or even Turk'y) at home, now you know where to get it. After a bit of a wait, they handed me this: That, my friends, is a CraB'less CraB Cake. It looked like a small kitchen sponge. It smelled heavily of Old Bay seasoning. I hesitantly took a bite. It wasn't bad. It wasn't great. But, it wasn't bad. This is what the inside looked like: It tasted like a soggy little cake made out of bread crumbs (or maybe sawdust) and Old Bay seasoning. There were some unidentifiable chunks of something in there that I assume was the "CraB." It had a very faint crab taste. Overall, it was very spicy. The twins each took a very small bite. We all agreed that it wasn't the worst thing we've ever eaten. It actually had a decent flavor, and the vegetables served with it were good. If someone bought me another one, I'd eat it. But, it's not high on my list of places that I want to revisit at the Food and Wine Festival. What about the cupcake? It was fine. It tasted like a chocolate cupcake. And the icing was as good as what comes out of one of those cans of ready made frosting. In fact, Tofu is probably less deadly than what they put in those cans of ready made frosting. So, the cupcakes at Terra are fine. Just a little on the small side. If you want to feel like a giant, get one and have fun. If you want to be confused, get one and take it over to the Honey I Shrunk the Kids playground. Your head might explode. It was here that Twin #2 left us. She needed to get back to DHS to work the final night of the original location of Frozen Oaken's Trading Post. So we said goodbye. Twin #1 and I had FP+'s left to use at Test Track and Soarin' (thanks to an easy FP+ hack), so we were going to stick around. I suggested that we head to Test Track via the path that would take us past the Craft Beer location over yonder: Since we were in the neighborhood, we popped in to take a look: But, still no beer for me. We hung out in the cool air conditioning for a while, and then pressed on. My Test Track vehicle: Twin #1's: Check out this dude. He's too cool for a fanny pack. So he has a designer shoulder bag. Have you ever seen one of those? I haven't. Maybe this guy will start the trend: I wish I had my camera out during the ride. For once, the new technology was working, and the vehicles we designed were show on the screens in the ride. Mine won several of the categories, including the overall award at the end. Free ride photo: From Test Track, we crossed over and made a stop at Club Cool for some free foreign soda products. Then we cut through the building and headed toward Soarin'. Just as we exited the building, someone called my name. it was the Lug. From Fort Fiends. He doesn't post much, but he's the guy from Jacksonville who got married not too long ago. He was there with his wife, Dana. They are another example of the inexplicable Fiend phenomenon of the Fiend men having wives way out of their league. His is a very extreme case. We chatted for a bit. Lug (JW) and Dana were in town for the weekend and checking out the Food and Wine Festival. Lug has gotten too good for us, and was staying in some swanky time share. Good to see you, Lug. And Dana. Then we went and rode Soarin'. Photo taken on the way out: I don't know of any trees that flower in the fall, but there's one in Epcot: Now what? We've been to Hollywood Studios, and just rode the big three rides in Epcot with no wait. Twin #1 wanted to see the Frozen fireworks later for one last time. But, it was only a bit after 3 now. The MK was only open until 7 tonight, because there was a Mickey's Not So Scary Halloween Party scheduled. Twin #1 and I both agreed that is where we needed to go. What is more fun than watching guests show up for a MNSSHP? Not much. If you don't believe me, keep reading and I'll show you. To the monorail!: And off we went. On the way, we saw a Four Seasons bus. I tried to get a photo, but I was too late. But I did get a photo of this Lynx articulated bus: The Halloween parties don't start until 7, but they let guests with MNSSHP tickets in to the MK beginning at 4 pm. So, the big pumpkins were inflated when we passed the MK parking booths at 3:56 pm: If you're wondering where all the WDW articulated buses are, here's where they're hiding them- at the Transportation and Ticket Center: We took the MK monorail, and here we are, just in time to see the Main Street Philharmonic marching down the street. I am not sure what they were doing out a bit past 4, but here they were: We grabbed ourselves a cold beverage from the Main Street Bakery, and found a place on Main Street to sit and people watch. Here come some party goers: It was here that Twin #1 shared some insider MNSSHP knowledge. It turns out that there's a part of the MNSSP that the young male college boy CM's are particularly fond of. Moms. Only they put a not-appropriate-for-this board-adjective in front of the word Moms. I think this Mom might fit in category the College Program boys like. This is the view from our viewing spot today. We were in the shade, and has a good view of guests coming in: The photos I took don't accurately reflect what we could see. The problem is that people were walking in different groups, and sometimes one group got in the way of my picture taking. Like, going back to that last photo, I was trying to get a photo of the ghost with the cane there behind the wheelchair: I got a better photo as they walked by us: Sometimes, I wasn't sure what certain groups were going for. Like this mom and daughter- the daughter is Elsa, but is the mom in a costume?: Look at these poor guests. They are dressed up as Big 10 conference athletes. I'm guessing they're from Michigan. Scary and sad at the same time: Here is Wonder Woman #1: Yes, I said #1. There will be more. Anyone want to guess how many? Here is Tweedle Dum. I don't know if he had a Tweedle Dee. This shot also includes an unwanted view of a mom shifting her cargo and showing her larboard side: And, may I ask what Tweedle Dum is looking at in that photo? Are we having fun? Do you like the costumes? I hope so, because there's another post full of them coming up next. And it starts with Wonder Woman #2. TCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Helmsey......Todd 134 Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Yay for people watching, looking forward to more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveInTN 3,247 Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 And the icing was as good as what comes out of one of those cans of ready made frosting. In fact, Tofu is probably less deadly than what they put in those cans of ready made frosting. You're right about that. Tofu is not bad for you.....although you shouldn't eat too much soy or you'll end up needing a manzierre. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tri-Circle-D 2,059 Posted October 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I was wondering if you'd try the peach drink. Sounds super weird, but I might split it with my friends just to try it. The beef, potato, and leek waffle is on my must do list. Everyone seems to love it. I think they'll keep the same track as well. But I'd say after the video it will be new boats. Bring on the Crab'less! Yes, you should try the peach drink. Where else will you ever get to try something like that? It's perfect to share. One or two sips is plenty. That waffle looks gross (dog food comes to mind), but it tastes surprisingly good. Keep it on your list. And, surprisingly, I say try the CraB'less. Again, it's something unique-and is something good to share. A bite or two is plenty to get the idea. The great thing about this booth is that there is never a line. Yay for people watching, looking forward to more. Well, then, you're in luck. The next update will be 30 photos of guests showing up for the Halloween party. You're right about that. Tofu is not bad for you.....although you shouldn't eat too much soy or you'll end up needing a manzierre. Thanks for the warning. No more Tofu for me. I'll just eat the frosting out of the can. TCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AC in A2......Aaron 693 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Several thoughts.....Those Guys were dressed up as Michigan basketball players. Its not like they were dressing up as football players.The Big Ten has some of the best basketball around.Tofu Cupcakes? YuckSawdust non-crab crabcakes? yuckCraft beer? MmmmmThe waffle with chocolate ganache looked good.Just for the record.....i like moms too. But I am partial to my kids' mom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tri-Circle-D 2,059 Posted October 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Several thoughts.....Those Guys were dressed up as Michigan basketball players. Its not like they were dressing up as football players.The Big Ten has some of the best basketball around.Tofu Cupcakes? YuckSawdust non-crab crabcakes? yuckCraft beer? MmmmmThe waffle with chocolate ganache looked good.Just for the record.....i like moms too. But I am partial to my kids' mom. Yes. those guys were dressed as basketball players. But, I still pity the fact that they're Michigan fans. Although I pity myself lately too. Go Gata. Sounds like you need to skip the Terra booth. You, which puts you in good company. I plan to spend some quality time at the Craft Beer venue soon. I am also pro-mom. But, there are some that need to tone it down with the costumes. TCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tri-Circle-D 2,059 Posted October 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 If you like seeing what guests wear to the MNSSHP's, then you'll like this post. If you don't, then I've got nothing for you. This post has 30 photos taken a little after 4 pm on Sunday, September 28th, as guests began to arrive for that night's MNSSHP. We start with Wonder Woman #2: You may be wondering how high the Wonder Woman count will go. It goes higher than I thought it would. In fact, we will see Wonder Woman #3 before this post is done. And she isn't the last one. So, if you like Wonder Women, keep reading. That couple over there kept it simple. They just have on Minion hats. I know those minions are from the movie Despicable Me, and I think there is an attraction featuring them over at Universal Studios. But, I've never seen the movie or the attraction, so I can't be sure. What I am sure of is that if I was in charge, I would not allow this. You want to wear a MinionTM hat? Fine. Take that stuff over to Uni: Sometimes, it's hard to tell if guests are wearing costumes, or if that's just how they dress. Like this group. That mom may have a wig on. Or, maybe that's just how she wears her hair: Maybe if we take a closer look? The kid with them had those weird earrings that make giant holes in your ear lobes: Is he dressed up as a Starbucks worker? I'm not sure. Let's move on. Here comes a group. The dads are dressed up. One is Captain Hook, and the other a Cowboy. Hmm. Two dads. What's up with that? Don't worry, here comes the cowgirl mom and the Tinkerbell mom: What have we here?: What are those? Pajamas? Beach cover-ups? : There's a family over there in Frozen costumes: Take a closer look: I don't think the kid is loving his Olaf costume. Go Gata!: Who you gonna call? Those last two photos were of a group dressed as Ghostbusters. Which is fine. Except that movie is 30 years old. Only old people will get it. This next photo is a fail. I got the back of Fix It Felix, but not his companions, who also were dressed in costumes: Let's see . . . Here comes some more people. What's going on here?: Let's take a closer look at the guy in the vest. I say he's Han Solo. Or is he Eugene Fitzherbert?: Twin #1 pointed out that there was a group dressed in Up! costumes taking a photo over by the flagpole. They even had a Kevin: That one is worth a closer look: Here comes a lone bumblebee: This is a good group. They are dressed as characters from the Broadway play, Newsies (which I have never seen-that's just what Twin #1 told me) : A closer look at the Newsies: They did pretty good there. I think this is just a couple dressed as tourists. Nice use of the free leis they give out at the Polynesian resort: I don't know who this guy in the bow tie is supposed to be. Twin #1 knew, and she told me, but now I can't remember. He's somebody, though: Here's Wonder Woman #3: And here comes Carl Fredericksen. You know, the old guy from Up!?: I think the lady with him (his mom maybe?) is Disney-bounding. But, I'm not sure. Maybe she just likes wearing pink sweaters on hot afternoons. Here's some random guests in random costumes. We have Bat Girl. And another Tink. And, look who's over there by the flagpole- Tweedle Dum again: Twin #1 pointed out another group by the flagpole- these people were dressed as characters from the movie Lilo and Stich, but we couldn't see the details very well, and I didn't know what the guy with the blue hat was supposed to be: Here's a cute idea. Mommy and Daddy were convicts, and the baby was dressed as a cop: I think that kid is going to end up confused. He'll probably end up with those giant holey earrings and work at Starbucks. Here's that Stitch group again: What is that thing on that guy's head?: Twin #1 got it. I still didn't. She said it was a bra. I asked why. She said you know- from that scene in the movie where Stitch pops out of the laundry and he has a bra on his head? Really? I don't remember that at all. But, I took Twin #1's word for it. That guy apparently plans to spend the next 7 hours walking around with a bra on his head. So, just like I told you, that's 30 photos. Which means this update is done. If you haven't had enough, I have more. The next update will start with those. But, then we're going to move along. I have some good news too. We will be starting off with Wonder Woman #4. TCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AC in A2......Aaron 693 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 MK party arrival/people watching pics rule! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
red...Susan 37 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Now I wonder how many people where laughing at DH and I in our costumes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fladogfan aka Gretchen 259 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 It was time. It had to be done. TCD is going to take one for the team and go to Terra and eat a CraB'less CraB cake. Weird spelling and all. It was now about 1:30 on a nice Sunday afternoon. The crowds were starting to show up. For a moment, I worried that there would be a line waiting for us at the Terra booth. But, then I remembered what they're trying to sell. Namely, this: They put that booth in what might be the best location in all of Epcot. It's booth #1. And, then they serve that stuff. The girls were willing to try the cupcake. Lucky for us there was no one in line at Terra. There were a couple of people who must not know how to read waiting for their orders, but there was no one in line to order. So we stepped right up and ordered a cupcake and CraB'less CraB Cake. Here's the cupcake. Notice the size: I told the girls that we should be glad the cupcake was miniature- it had tofu icing after all. The topping resembles something out of the back end of a sick dog. :barf: They could have used a star tip in the pastry bag. After a bit of a wait, they handed me this: That, my friends, is a CraB'less CraB Cake. It looked like a small kitchen sponge. Cue the laughter :rofl2: It smelled heavily of Old Bay seasoning. I hesitantly took a bite. It wasn't bad. It wasn't great. But, it wasn't bad. This is what the inside looked like: It tasted like a soggy little cake made out of bread crumbs (or maybe sawdust) and Old Bay seasoning. There were some unidentifiable chunks of something in there that I assume was the "CraB." It had a very faint crab taste. Overall, it was very spicy. I took one for the team also, but waited till TDC reported his findings. Agree, it tasted OK, mine had a very small piece, small being, crumb size, of fake crab in it. I could not detect any crab flavor, not even a fishy taste. Had way too much breading and was too moist. I like real crab cakes with lots of crab and little breading. But as you can see in TDC's photo it was nicely browned and served hot. The sauce and the vegies were very good! It was spicey! Noticed a lot of the food items are listed as spiced! I think that's to get us to buy more beverages! The twins each took a very small bite. We all agreed that it wasn't the worst thing we've ever eaten. It actually had a decent flavor, and the vegetables served with it were good. If someone bought me another one, I'd eat it. But, it's not high on my list of places that I want to revisit at the Food and Wine Festival. What about the cupcake? It was fine. It tasted like a chocolate cupcake. And the icing was as good as what comes out of one of those cans of ready made frosting. In fact, Tofu is probably less deadly than what they put in those cans of ready made frosting. So, the cupcakes at Terra are fine. Just a little on the small side. If you want to feel like a giant, get one and have fun. If you want to be confused, get one and take it over to the Honey I Shrunk the Kids playground. Your head might explode. :rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2: OK might try a cupcake. Here is Tweedle Dum. I don't know if he had a Tweedle Dee. This shot also includes an unwanted view of a mom shifting her cargo and showing her larboard side: OK TCD way too many of your posts have me laughing out loud...literally :rofl3: even got DH to take a look at screen too. Humph got message to reduce emoticons. How many are we 'allowed'? Reducing now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Helmsey......Todd 134 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 We will be starting off with Wonder Woman #4. TCD Great pics. Is this an accidental preview of WW#4? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tri-Circle-D 2,059 Posted October 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 MK party arrival/people watching pics rule! Watching MNSSHP guests arrive is one of the best perks of being a passholder. The best groups usually show up early. So, we can pop in, watch, and then split. I need to go again. Now I wonder how many people where laughing at DH and I in our costumes. Please don't get the wrong impression. I am not poking fun at the guests at all. I truly admire the guests who go to the trouble of dressing up. I am amazed at how creative and clever some people can be. Now, every now and then, there is a major fail, and I do have to laugh. What costumes did you wear? The topping resembles something out of the back end of a sick dog. :barf: They could have used a star tip in the pastry bag. LOL. I didn't notice that, but now that you mention it . . . I took one for the team also, but waited till TCD reported his findings. Agree, it tasted OK, mine had a very small piece, small being, crumb size, of fake crab in it. I could not detect any crab flavor, not even a fishy taste. Had way too much breading and was too moist. I like real crab cakes with lots of crab and little breading. But as you can see in TCD's photo it was nicely browned and served hot. The sauce and the vegies were very good! It was spicy! Noticed a lot of the food items are listed as spiced! I think that's to get us to buy more beverages!I agree with you that they seem to have turned up the spiciness on a lot of this year's offerings. I thought it was to hide the smaller portions, but you're right- it might be to sell more drinks. OK TCD way too many of your posts have me laughing out loud...literally :rofl3: even got DH to take a look at screen too.Thank you. I didn't know if anyone caught that clever Pirates of the Caribbean reference. Glad to know that someone did. Great pics. Is this an accidental preview of WW#4? D'oh!TCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dalspot ... Karen 21 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Just like shopping at Walmart! Sometimes, it's hard to tell if guests are wearing costumes, or if that's just how they dress. Like this group. That mom may have a wig on. Or, maybe that's just how she wears her hair: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
red...Susan 37 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 We dress as pirates. Most of the costume pieces I have made and DH really gets into character. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GaDawgFan.....Kelly 799 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Love the Halloween shots! We posted at the same time last time. I will not be trying the craB, but I'm proud of you for taking one for the team. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fladogfan aka Gretchen 259 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 "Thank you. I didn't know if anyone caught that clever Pirates of the Caribbean reference. Glad to know that someone did." The "We wants the red head" scene is my favorite on that ride. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
momof3kids-Yvonne 596 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 They actually had a re-release of Ghostbusters on the 30th anniversary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
michele j 9 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I always enjoy your halloween costume photos :) Looking forward more.. That Terra place is my kind of place...yup vegetarian here. I picked up a bag of gardein chicken strips tonight at the grocery store tonight, so thank you for that. I'm always looking for different kinds of vegetarian food. Bring on the next batch of costumes... :popcorn: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GaDawgFan.....Kelly 799 Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 They actually had a re-release of Ghostbusters on the 30th anniversary. Yes, people paid full price to see an old movie in the theater. Brilliant! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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